The new genealogists all consider this extreme one to Nicholas’ partner Clementia is provided here since, below typical points, she would not be said. When Susanna during the some after big date received out to a separate guardian, brand new spouse of these protector was not said.

This will mean that Queen John spent sometime indeed there and the possibility of a keen amorous liaison with Clementia is obtainable

Below let me reveal an idea advanced because of the particular eminent genealogists, however it is fair to declare that new conclusions is actually hotly competitive!

This concept leads to a great and you may interested ‘twist’ in the tale off Joanna, that could notice fans out-of HBD!

At first glance, there would be absolutely nothing to suggest one union between your hostage, Susanna away from Wales and you may Clementia, partner out-of Nicholas de- Verdun. However, sensation of certain genealogists with overseas hostages, including young ones, has been that they was have a tendency to put that have family unit members, if any was readily available.

Moving forward to 1236, there clearly was an entrance regarding the Tewkesbury annals and this pertains to Joanna’s mother since the “Queen Clemencie!” It reads simply:

Now, it is known that the mother out-of Joanna is actually titled Clementia (Clemence?

In this instance brand new monk is evidently indulging from inside the gothic legalism. Just before her dying, Joanna got legitimised by Pope. On such basis as that legitimisation, the latest Tewksbury monk plainly took it through to himself to elevate Joanna’s mommy for the condition out-of King, since if their particular mommy had been Queen John’s partner! It is a fact however, you to definitely Queen John and Clementia had been never ever hitched. Because of the writing on Joanna’s mommy once the “Queen” Clementia, the monk which submitted Joanna’s death was demonstrating their high value having Joanna, but not trying to change the real items.

When it comes to name out-of Clementia de Verdun, Paget implies that she is actually new daughter out of Roger de Dauntsey, out of Wiltshire. That genealogist takes into account it high that Clementia acclaimed out of Wiltshire because the he’s got noticed that Queen John got a strong connection in order to you to county, they as the household away from his most trusted allies, the latest Longespee, ilies and you will Geoffrey Fitz Peter.

Genealogists have discovered the identity ‘Clementia’ is extremely uncommon certainly one of English noblewomen with the period. In one single dining table of ladies’ brands which was collected, there had been just a few occurrences of your own term “Clementia” of a total of 1407 feamales in the brand new test! The point that some one called Clementia would be of the Susanna is tall.

So! Evidence try effective, yet not conclusive, you to definitely during the 1228, Susanna, due to the fact an effective hostage, gotten over to the brand new care of their unique maternal grandma, today wife regarding Nicholas de- Verdun!!

The latest Scottish genealogists of your MacDuffs’ hold you to definitely Susanna ferch Llywelyn was born 1214 for the Gwynnedd, Wales and passed away c. 1259 in the Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland. She hitched Malcolm MacDuff, Earl regarding Fife into the 1230 along with a couple college students: Sir Colbran MacDuff, Earl of Fife, created 1245, died 1270 and you may MacDuff MacDuff created 1247.

Of course, you will find stop arguments to all the so it supposition! Queen John got of several mistresses and possibly as much as seven illegitimate people. The mother from Joanna might have been born circa 1172 and you will marriageable circa 1184. Joanna by herself came into this world circa 1191 (14 years of age during the time of their unique wedding to help you Llywelyn). Rohese, the brand new understood legitimate child from Nicholas find sexy Porto alegre girls de- Verdun and his awesome spouse Clementia was created circa 1210-1213. When the Clementia is mom off Joanna, she’d are located in their unique later 30’s, very early 40’s whenever having a baby to Rohese! Maybe not hopeless, some say, however, not very likely.